Ep 373 – Vitamin A Debate

0:00:00.5 Speaker 1: Did you know that working at a Massage Envy franchise location comes with perks you'll love? You'll have access to professional skin and body care products from brands you know and trust, like Marini SkinSolutions and PCA Skin, as well as free continuing education and training opportunities. And, of course, an annual ASCP membership with insurance at no cost to you. Learn more about location-specific benefits when you search for open esthetician positions near you at massagenvy.com/sdcareers and apply today.

0:00:41.3 Maggie Staszcuk: Meet Comfort Zone, the Italian science-led skincare brand trusted by estheticians and featured in over 7,000 spas worldwide. Founded by pharmacist Dr. Davide Bollati, Comfort Zone is powered by over 60 in-house chemists and skincare experts dedicated to skin longevity. Our clinically tested formulas blend advanced botanical and biotechnology research to deliver real results and elevate every treatment experience. Discover more at us.comfortzoneskin.com or follow @comfortzoneskin_official on Instagram.

[music]

0:01:29.1 Maggie Staszcuk: Hello, and welcome to ASCP's Esty Talk. I'm your co-host Maggie Staszcuk, ASCP's program director.

0:01:34.3 Ella Cressman: And I'm Ella Cressman, Licensed esthetician, Certified organic skincare Formulator, ingredient junkie, and content contributor for ASCP.

0:01:43.1 Maggie Staszcuk: Ella, do you use vitamin A in your regimen?

0:01:46.0 Ella Cressman: Yes, I do. And I do in a lot of different ways. I used to be kind of personally very cautious about this ingredient, but let me tell you, it's an ingredient that everyone should be using. Not just that, but everybody's talking about it. Different forms, retinol, retinal, retinoic acid, esters, new generation of retinoids and different carriers, and so on. And there's a ton of opinion. Sometimes they don't always line up with the science.

0:02:15.7 Maggie Staszcuk: I am with you. I used to be really cautious, but now I use it pretty consistently, some form or another of it anyway. So today we're breaking down the biggest debates around vitamin A. What's real? What's marketing? What estheticians actually need to know, according to Maggie and Ella.

0:02:34.8 Ella Cressman: Is there any other source?

0:02:36.3 Maggie Staszcuk: Exactly, exactly. So let's start with all the forms of vitamin A, because part of the debate is that brands all claim their version is the one. So there's retinol esters like retinyl palmitate, retinyl acetate, retinol, retinal or retinaldehyde, retinoic acid as a prescription form. There's HPR or hydroxypinacolone retinoate, aka Granactive Retinoid, retinyl retinoate, encapsulated forms. Oh, my gosh. All of these are a mouthful. Some of them you may not have even heard of.

0:03:11.8 Ella Cressman: I have got to be honest with you. I think you can also see the history or the evolution of ingenuity with some of these, for sure. Especially the first two you mentioned, retinol esters like retinyl palmitate and retinol, OL, very common in our space. But it came in a, I don't want to say like a friendlier version than the OG, which was breaking through the skin. Well-intended as it was, but I think of that one as retinol, like Wreck-It Ralph. He comes in and he just makes a huge mess, gets the job done, but it's what happens in the aftermath. So I love what is happening in the industry now with the rest of them, but it's not like it's super exciting for everyone, right?

0:03:58.0 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. Absolutely. Here's where the controversy starts, starting with retinol esters. They're often marketed as gentle vitamin A, but they convert three times before they become active. So, yes, they're gentler because they're weaker. What's your feeling about retinol esters?

0:04:17.0 Ella Cressman: I feel like it's a tough love conversation. Weaker doesn't mean ineffective. They're softer, I think is a better language. It's a different communication with the skin. So I like esters when appropriate, and I'm always going to look at the entirety of the formulation and the intention. And then you have to consider what else they have going on in their regimen or their routine.

0:04:41.1 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. I'm right there with you. I like retinyl esters. I use them often. I feel like they work well for my skin. There's a time and a place for all of these ingredients, I think you could argue, right?

0:04:53.0 Ella Cressman: For sure. Absolutely. And then of course, we have retinol, the classic. There's a ton of evidence. This is again, like the OG. Good results, very effective. But here's where I see the problem with this one is you're adjusting the skin to get used to it. So you have to insert it into a routine, like a Monday, Friday kind of a situation. Then you grow to Monday, Wednesday, Friday. All well and good. Again, very effective. But that could be too much for me even, like, I think, what day is it? Just happened last week where I had a client who was on a prescription retinol and I told her, let's just start... Why get rid of it if you already have it? Let's start this way. She wasn't using it before because of that reason. She would forget what day it was. And she's like, "Well, I'll just catch it the next time I'm supposed to do it." So great, good results, however, not always easy to incorporate into your daily rhythm.

0:05:45.4 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. And retinol, the classic, the OG. This is what was available when we first entered the industry as estheticians. This was the product that you would say to your clients, "You need to use this to prep the skin ahead of your chemical peels," or those people that really wanted great results with a topical product, this is what you'd be recommending. And to your point, Ella, people would often stop using it because they couldn't get past that hump with the irritation.

0:06:15.4 Ella Cressman: Yes. For sure. There was a product that came out... Gosh, did it come out seven years ago, maybe, or six or seven years ago? And it's retinal. So we have OL and AL, so retinal-based. But the way that they had it formed, retinal, I'm going to call it retinal, like my friend. Retinal is marketed as a faster, better retinol, and it converts more efficiently in the skin. And that's really what we have to consider with retinols or vitamin A derivatives is how are they going to communicate in the skin. But this particular formula was awesome because we have this form that is not going to have to... Let's call it translate. So converting inside of the skin means it has to translate. Imagine you're translating from Spanish to French to English to Portuguese. Along the way, something may get lost in translation or your messaging might not be as effective. And that's the problem, some say. But this particular retin, AL is super effective because of the way it's encapsulated, which I think was cool, too.

0:07:22.9 Maggie Staszcuk: Oh, yeah.

0:07:23.7 Ella Cressman: Another innovation.

0:07:24.7 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. Cool. All right. We then have HPR or hydroxypinacolone retinoate, or Granactive Retinoid. Some brands claim it doesn't need conversion and works like tretinoin without the irritation. But maybe that's a stretch. Do you have opinions about Granactive Retinoid? It was kind of a buzzword, I feel like, for a little while.

0:07:46.3 Ella Cressman: I remember it, but I haven't heard it for so long. And I'm going to be honest with you, I don't really care. See, when you have so many forms, that it doesn't make me get excited. I sleep right through that one.

0:07:59.5 Maggie Staszcuk: And Ella has left the building. Okay. Yeah, you're right. You heard it for a while, and now nothing. And so maybe it didn't do quite what it claimed, or people transitioned to other forms of vitamin A.

0:08:14.6 Ella Cressman: There is something else shiny over there.

0:08:16.4 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

0:08:17.8 Ella Cressman: Yeah, for sure.

0:08:19.1 Maggie Staszcuk: One of the biggest debates in the industry is strength equals results, or no pain, no gain. Do you start clients on the strongest form they can tolerate, or do you go low and slow?

0:08:31.3 Ella Cressman: I think, honestly, I really love the analogy of skincare and physical working out and such, because that's what you're doing. So when you have a vitamin A derivative and you go hard in the beginning, you can imagine going hard in a workout, and what happens afterwards is you're so sore, you can't sit down to go to the bathroom. You're walking around in pain for a few days until it subsides. Then you do it again, and then you do it again. And the theory is the more you go hard in these hard workouts and give yourself time to rest, do it again, do it again, your body acclimates, and then you can continue going hard. But that doesn't mean that you are having different results than if you did a light workout or yoga. Have you seen Pilates bodies? Holy cannoli. Not hard, but it's a different approach, and you're still having good results. So I don't agree or I don't subscribe to the strength equals results. My favorite one is the one they're going to use.

0:09:38.0 Maggie Staszcuk: Okay. Yeah. I like your twist on that, Ella. For me, I have always been low and slow.

0:09:41.2 Ella Cressman: Nice.

0:09:44.4 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. And there are plenty of clients who have not liked my approach, and they're then not the client for me. I think, as you put it, going hard is not how I approach the skin. And I think it's too much wounding too often. And yes, to your point, the skin adapts and you can get great results, but it's just not my philosophy.

0:10:09.0 Ella Cressman: I think so too. So how would you approach... How did you approach your clients who gave you pushback on that?

0:10:16.2 Maggie Staszcuk: I did my best in educating them, and I did use that exercise analogy. And they either bought into what I was saying or they didn't, and they weren't my client. Done.

0:10:29.8 Ella Cressman: Room for the next.

0:10:31.4 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

0:10:32.8 Ella Cressman: I've had that before because I think it's pretty common, especially in a certain generation. And I would do the same thing. It's like, "This is better for you long term because it's going to give you longer-lasting results. You're going to get there the same time, but your skin is not going to be red and vulnerable along the way."

0:10:52.5 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah, yeah.

0:10:53.4 Ella Cressman: But you get to the destination at the same time, really.

0:10:56.3 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. Absolutely. Less is more, I always say. Let's nurture the skin, keep it healthy. It doesn't require chronic wounding all the time.

0:11:07.3 Ella Cressman: Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

0:11:09.4 Speaker 1: Estes, if you're not yet offering sugaring hair removal services, you're missing out. For clients, sugaring provides lasting results, is more gentle, and leaves the skin looking radiant. For businesses, it's eco-friendly, safe, hypoallergenic, and most importantly, profitable. If I've piqued your interest, check out the official CIDESCO-endorsed CPD sugaring program offered by Savvy Certification. Stand out with industry-recognized training, be added to a global registry, and gain the resources you need to start offering this service. Learn more at savvycertification.com. That's savvycertification.com.

0:11:55.3 Ella Cressman: Okay. Here we go. Let's get back to the podcast.

0:11:58.0 Maggie Staszcuk: Have you had clients who insisted on starting strong because they thought it meant quicker results?

0:12:03.3 Ella Cressman: Yep, but we quickly turned that boat. I kept on saying, "Hey, let's think about that," or, "Go ahead. You know what? Go ahead." And then we adapted... I'm going to meet my clients where they are, right?

0:12:14.0 Maggie Staszcuk: Mm-hmm.

0:12:14.7 Ella Cressman: So if that's what you want to do, maybe they have a prescription and it's $10 copay because they get it under their health insurance. Okay, well, then let's adjust everything else. So that means changing, adding more antioxidants, adding more soothing ingredients, definitely adding hyperpigmentation inhibition into their routine if that's what they want to do, for sure. Do I try to talk them out of it? Yeah, because I want them to buy my skincare, but you got to meet them where they are.

0:12:39.7 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. I often found this challenge truly with chemical peeling, less so with topical products. But certainly, there are those clients that feel like if they aren't seeing the redness, seeing the peeling, or feeling the burn when they apply the product, not that retinol burns per se. But that it wasn't then working. And I think that's part of the reason why you have this huge debate around strength equals results. And it's not just strength, it's also how often is your client using it, whether the product is buffered, how is it formulated, what's the stability, the delivery system. You mentioned encapsulation, I think.

0:13:21.9 Ella Cressman: Yeah, the encapsulated types are really cool too. My favorite.

0:13:26.2 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah, the delivery system and then also their skin barrier. So to our point here, the clients that are no pain, no gain and going hard, and what is the health of the skin, the barrier health of the skin? If they then use a very strong retinol and have a strong reaction to that retinol, perhaps they may think it's too strong or it's not for them or they can't tolerate it because the health of the skin has been depleted.

0:13:53.5 Ella Cressman: So do you think that's why pushing it too early is part of why clients don't comply, because they think they can't tolerate vitamin As?

0:13:58.0 Maggie Staszcuk: Could be, yeah.

0:14:02.5 Ella Cressman: Yeah. Because if clients stop using it, it doesn't matter how strong it is, right?

0:14:04.8 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

0:14:07.0 Ella Cressman: Here's another thing. Formulation is an area where confusion runs wild because people assume a 1% retinol equals 1% retinol. But there's so many other factors like stability, but also conversions too. So a 1% retinol or a 3% retinol sounds like more than a.1% prescription, right, or.3% prescription, when they're actually equitable. There's something that happens with chemists' formulations to where they can tell this is how much is in there and you have to compare it. Ask for, if you're using a brand's product, ask for the comparison, and that's an interesting fact. Also because retinol is... She's a hot mess. She can degrade with heat, with light, with air. So how it's packaged is super important. Does the bottle allow for air exposure? Is it an airless pump? Does it sit in a warm bathroom? Do you take it in your car? Does the product have encapsulated forms in the formulation? So one of my favorite things to talk about, one form that I loved, I was telling you about the AL, it was encapsulated in a really cool way that had calcium and other minerals. And so it's almost like it has a secret pass through the lipid barrier of the skin where other forms will kind of, as I was explaining, break through and cause trauma. This one whispers right past it. It's like it has a VIP pass. It doesn't have to wait in line, it doesn't have to cause a commotion. It just gets into the club and then it starts speaking with it. And then along the way, because it was in the shell that had these minerals, it was nourishing the skin along the way and helping with communication and hydration, which was really cool. So look for that. How is it wrapped? How is it packaged? What vehicle is it in is important too.

0:16:00.7 Maggie Staszcuk: Another topic, and this, I think was trending for a while and just like we were saying with the Granactive retinoids, this maybe has had its moment in past, but plant-based retinols or retinol alternatives like bakuchiol, for instance, or other botanical retinol-like ingredients that have benefits. They're not the same as retinol. They do not convert into retinoic acid. But some clients, they prefer a plant-based option, and it has similar exfoliating properties that a retinol perhaps does.

0:16:35.9 Ella Cressman: I love plant-based retinols too, or retinol mimics, retinol-like alternatives. I think they're fantastic because they're woven into a formula that has other... They should be woven into formulas that have other beneficial ingredients. And it's like a delicious salad, sneaky with all these vitamins and minerals inside of it. So I'm a big fan of those.

0:16:59.0 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. And it's also maybe another way to start someone out slow, someone who's more sensitive or someone who is afraid of the retinols. You can start them with something like bakuchiol or another plant-based alternative to get their skin used to a keratolytic and then slowly bump them up to a true retinol. Another controversy is usage rules. And we've touched on this a little bit already. But there used to be these really hard-fast rules about like, don't use vitamin A in summer, for instance, or don't use it during the day, only use it at night, don't put it around the eyes, don't mix it with your AHAs and BHAs. And I think that most of that is outdated. We don't follow those rules anymore. You can find vitamin A serums specifically for the eyes. It's mixed with your eye cream, for instance. And mixing it with AHAs and BHAs, we do that kind of thing all the time now. So those rules were oversimplified, and I think the industry really has shifted. I don't know if you have thoughts about that.

0:17:59.2 Ella Cressman: I think so too. But it's interesting because a lot of the education, let's talk about with chemical peels, it's still, "Make sure they're off of it for X amount of time," not considering formulations. They want you to be off of it for X amount of time because the top layer is vulnerable. But now with encapsulations like we talked about, or different forms or plant-based alternatives, your top layers aren't as vulnerable as before. So is it a good rule of thumb? Sure. But I think the assumption of don't use it in the summer doesn't really hold true in Colorado because it's like, "Oh, because you're out in the sun more often in the summer." But not here, we're always out in the sun. So it's a matter of finding one that's safe. Also with the vitamin A with AHAs, BHAs combo argument, again, that goes to the formulation. And formulations are so much more sophisticated than they used to be. It's not a bad idea to hold pause, but take that instead as an opportunity to ask questions, right?

0:18:58.8 Maggie Staszcuk: Yeah. Absolutely. And the funny thing is, even though I'm saying all of this and we're having this discussion, I can't let go of my training from 20-plus years ago. So my vitamin C is in the morning, my vitamin A is at night. You know what I mean? It's...

0:19:16.7 Ella Cressman: Right.

0:19:17.5 Maggie Staszcuk: Even though the industry has evolved and it's not so black and white anymore.

0:19:24.6 Ella Cressman: But your eye cream's still in the cupboard.

[laughter]

0:19:28.3 Maggie Staszcuk: Where it will stay.

0:19:28.8 Ella Cressman: And I know you're pushing that retinol all the way up to the lash line, so there's a little gap. It's working for me.

0:19:34.0 Maggie Staszcuk: It's definitely....

0:19:35.6 Ella Cressman: Yeah. It grows from foundational learning, which is important to see. I happen to know that foundational changing is, or excuse me, that foundational education is modernizing, which is exciting. So it's going to be interesting to see coming up.

0:19:50.1 Maggie Staszcuk: That is exciting. So what's the takeaway here? Vitamin A is powerful. It's good to have in your arsenal, but it's also nuanced. There's no single quote unquote best form, only the best fit for each client. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What's your take on vitamin A? Share with us on social media through Instagram, Facebook, or by emailing getconnected@ascpskincare.com. Thank you for listening to ASCP's Esty Talk. And as always, for more information on this episode or for ways to connect with Ella and myself, or to learn more about ASCP, check out the show notes.